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Talk:Agahnim (A Link to the Past)
Was he really 'possessed' by Ganon? The Japanese game manual implies that they're one and the same, and in both English translations Ganon explicitly refers to him as his "alter ego." I always held that Agahnim was just Ganondorf in the guise of a priest/wizard. I don't believe it's ever stated directly either way, so shouldn't the article be a bit more ambiguous about this? Dazuro (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :The problem is that it was also implied that Agahnim needed to break the seal on the Dark World. If he was simply Ganon in disguise, why would he need to break the seal to the Dark World if he already managed to escape from the Dark World anyways? It almost seems redundant. Possession is really the only thing that actually makes sense. At least then, he would be attempting to break the seal of the Dark World so Ganon and his armies would emerge from the portal. Plus, when Agahnim was defeated the second time, after spinning around and collapsing, he lies rather corpselike while Ganon's spirit emerges from his body and transforms into a bat before plowing through the top of the Pyramid of Power. If Ganon and Agahnim were one and the same, they would have had Agahnim's clothes fall off to reveal Ganon's pig visage before he transforms into a Bat. The way they did it would imply spiritual possession rather than simply being the same entity. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:00, November 20, 2010 (UTC) Shiekah Boss Character Tribe of Evil Anyone think this needs a page? I ask rather then out righting making it because I'm not entirely sure a page for it would work there's not much more that can be said about it other then Agahnim and possibly Ganon are part of it. I do think is deserves a mention though maybe somewhere on this page. Any opinions on this?}} Possessed VS Alter Ego Debate I'm here to explain why I think we can state that Aghanim is an Alter Ego of Ganon and not a separate normal individual who he eventually possessed. The primary evidence is that the word used in both english translations of the game is "Alter Ego", a term which indicates a second self/alternate personality/etc., and is incompatible with the idea that Agahnim was a separate person who became possessed. That's the English, now here is a direct translator's comments on the original Japanese text: "Word is like a copy, or your other self, or when you split yourself into two people. It implies that Ganon and Agahnim were the same thing in a way. For example, Word is used in OoT to describe one of the Poe bosses in the Forest Temple: "Meg - one of the Poe sisters. If she splits into multiple images, you need to figure out which one is the real one." So Agahnim is kind of like a copy or shadow of Ganon." I personally think that this helps clarify, but even ignoring the original writer's words, this same concept is still conveyed by the US term "Alter Ego". The argument has been raised that after the second defeat of Agahnim, a transparent Ganon sprite rises from his corpse. This has been interpreted as indicating possession, though I don't understand the reason that it should be. Ganon's entire purpose for Agahnim (whether or not he was an alter ego or possessed being) was for Ganon to have a way to act in the Light World, since his true self was sealed away from it and could not enter. I see no reason that an alter ego extension of Ganon would not be made with a physical body, or why this second self's corpse would cease to exists when the true Ganon severs his connection it, and leaves to manifest his still intact true self in other forms. Agahnim has to have a body of his own for use in the Light World, and I don't see why Ganon, who is of course connected to it, could not in some way inhabit it and rise from it while it is in the Dark World. I feel like the the "rising from a body means independent person who was later possessed" idea is subjective and vague, while the "Alter Ego" term is very clear and directly stated by Ganon. I know of no other evidence to support the possession idea (remember that manga is noncanonical).--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 04:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC) The problem is that Alter-Ego implies that its some sort of disguise, like how Kent Clark's alter ego is Superman, Palpatine's alter ego is Darth Sidious, or how Vanessa's alter ego is Ursula (heck, they even have Vanessa actually transforming into Ursula as soon as the sun set on the third day). They would have probably pulled something similar just to make it 100% apparent that Agahnim and Ganon were one and the same. Actually, Ganondorf is probably a lot closer to an alter ego to Ganon than Agahnim was, since unlike Agahnim and Ganon, they actually transformed into one another. Now, a very good way of actually showing they were alter egos is that Agahnim, shortly after being defeated, has poof smoke appear and in his place Ganon emerges, and THEN Ganon transforms into a bat. If you want drama, just have lightning hit the spot the poof smoke appears and it will work. If they could pull it off with Blind, they certainly can do so with Agahnim just to be as in-your-face that its an alter ego/disguise as one can get. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:46, November 11, 2011 (UTC) :I'm not trying to be harsh here, but from my perspective it seems like you're saying that because the visual effect that happens after Agahnim's defeat isn't as well executed as you would have liked, we should throw out the one part of the game that actually clearly states in plain words what Agahnim's relationship to Ganon is. The possessed person idea is compatible with the visual effect of course, but not with the direct statement. The second self idea is compatible with both the visual effect and the direct statement. I've already explained why the seal placed on Ganon himself requires that the second self he creates in the Light World be physically separate from him and not his actual self in disguise. It doesn't really matter what other common examples of alter egos may exist, the term does not apply to an entirely separate person who was later taken control of. The Japanese translation makes it clear that the intent was that Ganon had in some way projected a second, but separate, self; the US translation team simply didn't have a convenient term in their language that implied that the two selves did not have to be always housed in the same body, so they just used "alter ego" to denote that a second self was in play, and not a possession. I guess we need more people's opinions here because we seem to have conflicting ideas on what is relevant to this sort of thing.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 21:52, November 11, 2011 (UTC) In my personal opinion I do not think Agahnim was a normal person possessed. However when referring to the relationship I think the term alter ego should be used but not overly. Things should be neutral so instead of "Ganon abandoned his host Agahnim" or "Ganon rose up from his alter ego's remains" it should simply be "Ganon rose up from Agahnims remains". I think Agahnim is his alter ego but I also think it isn't a major issue in the story and references to Ganon projecting himself into the light word or such should be avoided. Oni Link 22:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC) Neither option seems fittingly conclusive to me. Phrasing the information in a neutral way that doesn't favor either belief seems to be the best course of action as both sides are taking increasingly frayed leaps of logic to justify their stance. --AuronKaizer ' 23:07, November 11, 2011 (UTC) :While I can't say I understand the evidence for the possession idea, the conversation has gone stagnant. I've "neutralized" all the pages I know of that go into any detail about Ganon/Agahnim. These pages state the factual in-game events directly; that Ganon describes Agahnim as his alter ego (not that he ''is, but that Ganon describes him using those words), and that Ganon is see rising from Agahnim's body and then transforms into a bat and flees. The articles do not make any attempt to explain what these two events may or may not imply. The reader is left to draw what they will from the raw events of the game.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'''Fierce]][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 01:56, November 16, 2011 (UTC)